Re: [ProgSoc] HTML Editors (was: New Intel Logo)

[daedalus <jpw001@nospam.its.maynick.com.au>]

I was going to stay quiet on this, since it's just a flame, but I felt a 
need to make some points. Just my opinion, as usual.

On Tue, 26 May 1998 pkennedy@nospam.keycorp.com.au wrote:

> }PageMill/SiteMill/FrontPage all suck big time. Very dodgy code, which
> often
> }doesn't work in Netscape at all (they rarely close tags).
> funny you say that.....most people reckon FP inserts TOO MANY tags (ie:
> those that you really don't have to use, like </P>)
> 
> as for not working in Netscape.....I've never had any problems besides
> those with authentication techniques

I've got a FrontPage web running on an NT box (I didn't design it, or put 
it there in the first place, I just have to maintain it.) It sux. 
Netscape regularly bombs (bus errors) when I try to run one of M$ .asp 
things from the FrontPage built things.

> }To be honest, I still code everything in vi or BBEdit. The designers like
> }to use these gimmicky tools, I prefer to have real control.
> yeah gimmicky tools which provide such nasties as version control,

version control? RCS.

> automated maintenance,

eh? Is this some whizzbang thing the rest of we sysadmins haven't heard 
of? Something which updates page data automagically? please explain.

integrated scripting, 

What, like cgi? perl? /bin/sh? Again, pls explain.

navigation control, 

otherwise known as a file system.

change
> logging, 

Again, RCS

in-built search/index.

grep.

> no tool is perfect, but coding (HTML, script or otherwise) by hand is
> oldfashioned and a waste of a good designers time

I disagree with the principle of this comment. Agreed, no tool is 
perfect. Coding by hand, in whatever language, still provides the 
tightest, cleanest, most stable and maintainable code, if done correctly. 
These 4GL type programs allow you to create quick, average code. Check 
the source output by FrontPage. It's a mess. And all those <bot> or 
whatever they are tag things that get put in there. wtf? How am I 
supposed to copy HTML to a unix webserver?

Oh, and there's a "feature" on one page I maintain where FP was used to 
create little java applets for the equivalent of Javascript 
onmouseover/onmouseout stuff. A whole Java applet. For each button. Slow 
to load? You better believe it. Coded by hand, I'd have to write 1 applet 
with a bit of code to handle each button and what they do. It'd run 
faster, be smaller and quicker to load and less taxing on the user's browser.

Code, if done right, should be easily maintainable and stable. Using a 
package like FrontPage doesn't make good code, it just does things 
quickly for those with little knowledge. I can create good stuff with vi, 
a browser and gimp (Gnu Image Manipulation Program) just as quick. And my 
code will run under unix, NT or whatever webserver you want.

> work smarter not harder.....someone said that, but can't remember
> who.....(might have been a Lotus ad!)

I wouldn't call using FrontPage smarter. I'd call it lazier. It has its 
place for those who don't know all the tags (and can't look them up 
quickly in an online reference). Those who can't conceptualise what a 
page is going to look like without having it displayed there in front of 
them the whole time (though u just need a browser beside your vi session 
under x to do the same thing).

There's nothing _wrong_ with using FrontPage. It just appeals to a 
certain type of person. I happen to prefer being able to control exactly 
what is going to happen on my page without having to go through 5 menus 
and get asked 'Do you really want to?' all the time. It's like the 
difference between C and oh.. I dunno.. Eiffel? C assumes you know what 
to do, Eiffel assumes you don't.

Either way, if you do it right the first time, your maintenance should be 
as low as it can be.

+---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
|      Justin Warren        | justin.warren@nospam.its.maynick.com.au        |
|   Systems Administrator   | daedalus@nospam.progsoc.uts.edu.au             |
| Mayne Nickless Express IT | http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~daedalus |
+---------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT after you...  |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

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