> At 12:55 AM 30/3/97 +1100, James Bathe wrote:
> >As far as i understood it, the fuss is over who controls progsoc..not
> >who is currently maintaing ftoomsh. As perious e-mails have stated
> >the admin have offered their services for the good of the scoiety,
> >not for the good of the excutive. So if the excutive was changed
> >would the present admin and anyoneelse who wanted to help run ftoomsh
> >suddenly withdraw their services? If so then they don't have the
> >interests of progsoc at heart.
>
> So let me get this right. You expect these people who've put in massive
> amounts of effort to now do the work of administering ftoomsh without any
> official authority?
I see...if they don't have the power of the executive they don't want
to know agbout progsoc...i don't think many of the current admin
would agree with u at all.
>Basically they'd be working for Chi et al and doing
> things his way but you still expect them to put in the same effort?
See not later on:
> Otherwise they "don't have
> Progsoc's interests at heart" What is this? Hitler's Progsoc? If I'd been
> kicked out of my position in a volunteer organisation,
Hang on a minute...why is it 'your' postion as u state it, as of the first
AGM this year it was offically not your postion, it was open to
nominations and to be decided upon by vote. If u lose that vote and decide
that because u lost u r going to to everthing u can to damage progsoc i
don't think anyone really wants you as a member.
/* if this was hitlers progsoc...(and the current admin weren't hitler)
u would very quickly find out what real life is about...a few seconds
before your 'untimely' death. Don't try and be smart..it doesn't seem to
work to well.*/
> and been told that
> I'll no longer have a say in what's being done because
No longer have a say...by that u mean that regular progsoc members don't
have a say?(except at election time)....i think u are blinded by the
current adminstrations legacy.
>my work before was
> not appreciated
Your work as admin or on the excutive?...there is a very real differnce.
>and counts for nought by people who didn't know what they
> were on about, guess how long I'd stay in the organisation!
If u had such a spiteful attidue i think few would be sorry to see
the back of you.
> >We all know the admin work hard to maintain ftoomsh....what do the
> >excutive work hard to do? Above and beyond the basic paper work of
> >running any society and the bi-annual production of a mostly
> >photocopied TFM.
>
> Now you're criticizing TFM? It is not "mostly photocopied".
Guess you should read it. As just a very small example:
TFM1995 volume1:page 48-49 (customising the C shell)
TFM1996 page 60-61 (customising the C shell)
Note the 'similar' content?
> I happen to
> know what kind of effort some of the people working on TFM have put in
> since I've been at Uni.
Originaly effort..or just the effort of reproducing?
> One reason I haven't contributed is the amount of
> time I'd have to spend on it. Some of these ppl are on the current
> executive and some not. They've given up a lot of time and effort -
> sometimes entire weekends and more.
You are breaking my heart. You might spend 200% effort trying to push
a wall over...but at the end of the day what have u achieved?
Effort without vision and purpose will get u nowhere.
> When I was a first year. TFM was one of the most helpful documents I used
> to gain knowledge about basic UNIX commands and how to use the SOCS network
> to advantage. I still find myself referring to it whenever I've forgotten
> something because in that one book a good deal of what you need to know is
> concisely stated. And it's funny to boot! I don't think I'm the only 1st
> year who can say that.
True more or less...but i own 3 seperate additions...why should i or
anyother member who already owns a TFM buy another if there it is just
a re-shuffling of mostly the same information?
Is the TFM just a first year project? If so i stand very much corrected.
> Is this how your mob is going to treat all Progsoc members if you get in?
> God help us.
My mob....i don't think u know who u r even talking about.
> >Most e-mails so far stating the case of the existing excutive r
> >mearly attempting to smear the reputation of their oppostion.
> >Mud sticks it is true, and as such it is a valid political
> >tactic (and so is branch stacking).
>
> A smear campaign? Chi et al have answered none of the legitimate questions
What like "What's the point of having a MUD orient society anyway???"
> raised in this discussion (such as who's going to admin the machines,
Note: also addresses a previous statemnet.
Again we come to the point where you think that the present admin
and all the rest of the 'qualified' poeple in progsoc (inculding those
who r not satisfied with the current administration), will withdraw
there services out of protest, is this the case...if so state it
absoultly.
Make a petition, sign your names...say if my friends loses i will not
contribute to progsoc anymore....see if that gets you any votes..u
never know it might work...Hitler would be proud, though i doubt u would
be.
> who's
> going to organize lectures, which people are in on the "take over" and how
> many have time to give up, the knowledge or the people skills to run
> Progsoc)
you have just admited that you know very little about the oposition to
the adminstration. Given your ignoreance and the fact that you state
latter that i am "being very hypocritical telling people they are
ignorant" it would seem u too r a hypocrit. Though i guess its not
hard for one ignorant person to recongnise another.
>If "branch stacking is a legitimate tactic, why are there
> complaints about counter stacking. You can't have it both ways!
I must have missed them...please foward them to me, or better yet repost
them.
> >What does the current excutive offer?
>
> Have you bothered to find out?
I have tried.
> You haven't even been involved in Progsoc
> except to have your needs met. Name me something you've done for Progsoc
> please. I think you're being very hypocritical telling people they are
> ignorant.
This is what it comes down to...last year various people volunteered
to help the present admin...I was among them..so was Chi and various
others, did we get the chance to help?
No.
We weren't even contacted to say why we were refused.
Porgsoc is currently under the iron grip of the 'progsoc people'
defined in my previous e-mail. If you r not part of that
social group and that said group takes even the slightest dislike
to you...u have no chance of getting 'invovled' in progsoc. You
want names..they can be provided (though..unlike others i will
ask before balently naming people publicly).
> >Is it mearly a case of 'better the devil you know' and anything
> >but status quo is evil?
>
> The more I see of the other devil, the more I appreciate the devil i know.
But u have said pervious that you know nothing (well almost nothing)
about this supposed other devil.
> >Chi has stated his policies, made his promises. What does the
> >excutive offer to counter this...apart from insults and
> >accusations?
>
> Where has he stated his policies and when? I've seen a lot of very nice
> sounding but impractical ideas and no detail whatsoever on how they might
> be accomplished.
Sounds like a typical policy to me..where are the current administrations
policies? Where are the e-mails stating if u vote for us we will do this
for u?
> >It seems to me that the 'progsoc' people belive that they
> >have some sort of god given right to rule progsoc, that
> >they have done such an outstanding job and perform so
> >flawlessly that they can not lose.
>
> No I think they're scared of what you'll do to Progsoc and all the effort
> they put in.
So why arn't thay stating their policies...they must be very brave...I'm
so glad that we have such brave and valiant leaders.
> >Can anyone tell me what the current executive offers?
> > (apart from the obvious)
>
> See this is what I mean about no detail.....please define the obvious.
Does anyone else see the irony?
> Have
> you sat down and looked at it.
Define 'it'..seriously, i would have thought that the answer to my
question was in my e-mail...but in case u can't find it i will
make it clear:
-TFM
-usual society paper work (eg: financial accounts)
-specific society paper work (eg: appointment of ftoomsh admin)
What else is there? I am asking because i don't know...if you r so
knowledgeable tell me and the rest of the society in no under certain
terms what they are getting for their money.
*/The excutive does NOT run ftoomsh(just thought i'd re-state that),
it appoints the people who run ftoomsh.
Also pls don't tell me they get a cheap ISP...progsoc does provide
'internet connected' accounts sure...but u must first be on the internet
to access them. If progsoc wanted to be a real ISP it would put in
modems like other ISP's (i don't see that happening..or am i wrong?)
*/
> >What other companies r active donaters to progsoc
> >(would Sun really cut links with progsoc if the
> >excutive changed...or would it require the 'progsoc'
> >people telling Sun that they r not welcome?)
>
> If you guys with your attitude went up to Sun with the same attitude you're
> displaying here, I think Sun would tell you where to go. The people at Sun
> know the people on the exec. If you've lost the people on the exec due to
> your callus attitude towards their efforts, you'd have to rebuild
> relationships with Sun. If an exec changes either in part or fully and the
> new exec is introduced to Sun's staff by the old exec, there's much more of
> a chance of securing more equipment.
First things first...You did not answer my question.
My question was "What other companies r active donaters to progsoc"
..can someone answer this question pls?
Secondly you arn't being clear...what is our attitude? The e-mail from
the current administration seems to be full of swearing, insults etc..
is this what Sun expects?
In regards to:
"If you've lost the people on the exec due to
your callus attitude towards their efforts,"
So is the currently adminstration some sort of blessing? Shall we
bow down to them in fear of their loss?
If they lose...they will lose be a democratic vote, if they don't like
that and decide to up and leave (pls say so if it is true), do you really
expect me or anyone to 'cry' at their loss?
If i understand u...correct me if i don't...progsoc and hence ftoomsh
are not in danger from disconection from Socs or ITD..as much as they
are in danger from the displeasure of the 'progsoc people'. Are you
trying to say that if u don't vote for the current adminstration..u
risk its destruction from the very hand that aparently runs it now?
> To conclude, this entire attitude of change without reason, change without
> though and change without direction,
The direction has been stated...thought has gone behind this...though u
may like to think that we r just a small fringe group of ignorant mudders
(surprise surprise most of our support is not from the mud connunity)
You want more than that? look around you...politcics is about change...
where there is no change there is no growth.
Stagnation is death.
> which from my view of the world at
> least has increased manyfold in the last few weeks at UTS is destructive.
U fear change...i have no doubt u would like to see progsoc placed in some
ivory tower, safe from the real world, safe from its members.
> If you guys
'guys', how many women r amoungst the ranks of the 'progsoc people'?
I think u should be refering to your camp as 'us guys'.
> are going to make any changes at all, make sure that on balance
> they are constructive.
We will, I'm sure Chi would state that also. Can u say that the
status quo is a constructive policy for progsoc?
> People are forgetting to THINK before they speak and
> act,
Life is going on as usual then, is some of your message a point in fact?
James Bathe